#687: Justin Gary — Taking the Path Less Traveled, The Phenomenon of “Magic: The Gathering,” How Analytical People Can Become “Creative” People, Finding the Third Right Answer, and How to Escape Your Need for Control
The Tim Ferriss Show
<p><strong><em>Brought to you by </em></strong><a href="https://linkedin.com/tim" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><strong><em>LinkedIn Jobs</em></strong></a><strong><em> recruitment platform with 900M+ users, </em></strong><a href="https://roka.com/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=podcast-2307-rxsun-general-reco-timferriss-general&utm_content=timferriss" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><strong><em>ROKA Eyewear</em></strong></a><strong><em> high-quality sunglasses and glasses, and </em></strong><a href="https://drinkag1.com/tim" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><strong><em>AG1</em></strong></a><strong><em> all-in-one nutritional supplement.</em></strong></p><p><strong>Justin Gary </strong>(<a href="http://twitter.com/@Justin_Gary" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">@Justin_Gary</a>) is an award-winning designer, author, speaker, and entrepreneur. He is CEO of <a href="https://stoneblade.com/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Stone Blade Entertainment</a> and <strong>creator of the innovative and award-winning </strong><a href="https://www.amazon.com/Stoneblade-Entertainment-GGS-001-Ascension/dp/B0040QE5YC/?tag=offsitoftimfe-20" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><strong><em>Ascension</em></strong></a><strong> deck-building game series</strong>. Prior to designing games, Justin was the youngest ever <em>Magic: The Gathering</em> US National Champion. He has studied creativity and applied the principles of design to create dozens of products over his 20 years in the industry for brands that include Marvel, <em>World of Warcraft</em>, and the Wharton School of Business. Today, he designs, consults, and teaches creativity around the world as a digital nomad.</p><p>Justin is also the author of <a href="https://www.amazon.com/Think-Like-Designer-Step-Step/dp/1947937391/?tag=offsitoftimfe-20" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><strong><em>Think Like a Game Designer: The Step-By-Step Guide to Unlocking Your Creative Potential</em></strong></a><strong> </strong>and host of the <a href="https://www.thinklikeagamedesigner.com/podcast" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><strong><em>Think Like a Game Designer</em></strong></a><strong> </strong>podcast.</p><p>Please enjoy!</p><p>*</p><p><strong>This episode is brought to you by </strong><a href="https://drinkag1.com/tim" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><strong>AG1</strong></a><strong>!</strong> I get asked all the time, “If you could use only one supplement, what would it be?” My answer is usually <a href="https://drinkag1.com/tim" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">AG1</a>, my all-in-one nutritional insurance. I recommended it in <em>The 4-Hour Body</em> in 2010 and did not get paid to do so. I do my best with nutrient-dense meals, of course, but <a href="https://drinkag1.com/tim" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">AG1</a> further covers my bases with vitamins, minerals, and whole-food-sourced micronutrients that support gut health and the immune system. </p><p><strong>Right now, you’ll get a 1-year supply of Vitamin D free with your first subscription purchase</strong>—a vital nutrient for a strong immune system and strong bones. <strong>Visit </strong><a href="https://drinkag1.com/tim" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><strong>DrinkAG1.com/Tim</strong></a><strong> to claim this special offer today and receive your 1-year supply of Vitamin D (and 5 free AG1 travel packs) with your first subscription purchase! </strong>That’s up to a one-year supply of Vitamin D as added value when you try their delicious and comprehensive daily, foundational nutrition supplement that supports whole-body health.</p><p>*</p><p><strong>This episode is also brought to you by </strong><a href="https://roka.com/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=podcast-2307-rxsun-general-reco-timferriss-general&utm_content=timferriss" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><strong>ROKA Eyewear</strong></a><strong>! </strong><a href="https://roka.com/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=podcast-2307-rxsun-general-reco-timferriss-general&utm_content=timferriss" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">ROKA</a> makes the world’s most versatile eyewear—packing all the same features used by Olympic gold medalists and world champions into <strong>stylish everyday sunglasses and glasses</strong>. I’m incredibly impressed with <a href="https://roka.com/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=podcast-2307-rxsun-general-reco-timferriss-general&utm_content=timferriss" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">ROKA</a>. The quality is outstanding, and a lot of my friends who are elite athletes wear them. I’ve been using their Rory blue-light glasses after sunset, and I feel the improvement in my sleep quality.</p><p>With more than 19,000 five-star reviews, <a href="https://roka.com/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=podcast-2307-rxsun-general-reco-timferriss-general&utm_content=timferriss" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">ROKA</a> has created a solution that active people love. Plus, they hand-build their glasses, sunglasses, and reading glasses all in the USA. <a href="https://roka.com/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=podcast-2307-rxsun-general-reco-timferriss-general&utm_content=timferriss" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><strong>Check out my favorite frames and get 20% off your first order at Roka.com and use code TIM20</strong></a><strong>.</strong></p><p>*</p><p><strong>This episode is also brought to you by </strong><a href="https://linkedin.com/Tim" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><strong>LinkedIn Jobs</strong></a><strong>.</strong> Whether you are looking to hire now for a critical role or thinking about needs that you may have in the future, <a href="https://linkedin.com/Tim" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">LinkedIn Jobs</a> can help. LinkedIn screens candidates for the hard and soft skills you’re looking for and puts your job in front of candidates looking for job opportunities that match what you have to offer.</p><p>Using LinkedIn’s active community of more than 900 million professionals worldwide, <a href="https://linkedin.com/Tim" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><strong>LinkedIn Jobs</strong></a> can help you find and hire the right person faster. <strong>When your business is ready to make that next hire, find the right person with LinkedIn Jobs. And now, you can post a job for free.</strong> <a href="https://linkedin.com/Tim" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><strong>Just visit LinkedIn.com/Tim</strong></a><strong>.</strong></p><p><strong>*</strong></p><p>[07:43] An origin story steeped in Magic.</p><p>[11:23] A debatable past.</p><p>[16:38] The life of a full-time Magic competitor.</p><p>[18:24] A philosophy major.</p><p>[19:45] Monopoly lessons learned from a family of lawyers.</p><p>[23:28] Innovations that made Magic an instant success.</p><p>[26:40] Magic game balance considerations.</p><p>[30:06] Justin exits his Magic career with an altered mindset.</p><p>[36:43] Too cool for law school.</p><p>[41:34] Risk is relative.</p><p>[43:39] From playing games to designing games.</p><p>[46:10] A Whack on the Side of the Head.</p><p>[49:53] Surfacing our assumptions.</p><p>[54:47] The core design loop and effective brainstorming.</p><p>[1:00:20] Brainstorming tools.</p><p>[1:02:01] Prototyping.</p><p>[1:06:26] The value of ugly first drafts.</p><p>[1:09:37] From company man to entrepreneur.</p><p>[1:15:45] Fear-setting and contingency planning.</p><p>[1:18:13] The early stages of startup life.</p><p>[1:24:05] TTP.</p><p>[1:25:21] Taking the company to the next level.</p><p>[1:31:43] Gaming GAMA and other trade shows.</p><p>[1:37:02] Eliciting feedback at the playtesting stage.</p><p>[1:42:32] Ascension debuts at Gen Con.</p><p>[1:47:04] The finances of game production.</p><p>[1:51:27] The pros and cons of selling a game to another company.</p><p>[1:53:54] Favorite failures.</p><p>[1:59:17] Maintaining relationships through failures.</p><p>[2:00:45] Lessons learned through trial and error.</p><p>[2:03:39] Putting the rule of three to work.</p><p>[2:05:21] Why Justin’s team communicates via Discord.</p><p>[2:07:49] How a trip to Thailand helped Justin escape his need for control.</p><p>[2:11:25] Justin’s billboard.</p><p>[2:12:49] Parting thoughts.</p><p><strong>*</strong></p><p><strong>For show notes and past guests on </strong><a href="https://tim.blog/podcast" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><strong><em>The Tim Ferriss Show</em></strong></a><strong>, please visit</strong> <a href="https://tim.blog/podcast/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=podcast-description" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><strong>tim.blog/podcast</strong></a><strong>.</strong></p><p><strong>For deals from sponsors of </strong><a href="https://tim.blog/podcast" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><strong><em>The Tim Ferriss Show</em></strong></a><strong><em>, </em>please visit </strong><a href="https://tim.blog/podcast-sponsors" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><strong>tim.blog/podcast-sponsors</strong></a></p><p><strong>Sign up for Tim’s email newsletter (<em>5-Bullet Friday</em>) at </strong><a href="https://go.tim.blog/5-bullet-friday-1/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><strong>tim.blog/friday</strong></a><strong>.</strong></p><p><strong>For transcripts of episodes, go to </strong><a href="https://tim.blog/transcripts" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><strong>tim.blog/transcripts</strong></a><strong>.</strong></p><p><strong>Discover Tim’s books: </strong><a href="https://tim.blog/books" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><strong>tim.blog/books</strong></a><strong>.</strong></p><p><strong>Follow Tim:</strong></p><p><strong>Twitter</strong>: <a href="https://twitter.com/tferriss" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">twitter.com/tferriss</a> </p><p><strong>Instagram</strong>: <a href="https://instagram.com/timferriss/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">instagram.com/timferriss</a></p><p><strong>YouTube</strong>: <a href="https://www.youtube.com/timferriss" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">youtube.com/timferriss</a></p><p><strong>Facebook</strong>: <a href="https://www.facebook.com/TimFerriss/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">facebook.com/timferriss</a> </p><p><strong>LinkedIn: </strong><a href="http://linkedin.com/in/timferriss" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">linkedin.com/in/timferriss</a></p><p>Past guests on <a href="http://tim.blog/podcast" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><strong><em>The Tim Ferriss Show</em></strong></a> include <a href="https://tim.blog/2020/12/08/jerry-seinfeld/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Jerry Seinfeld</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2020/06/26/hugh-jackman/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Hugh Jackman</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2020/04/16/jane-goodall/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Dr. Jane Goodall</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2018/11/27/lebron-james-mike-mancias/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">LeBron James</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2020/05/20/kevin-hart/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Kevin Hart</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2018/09/07/doris-kearns-goodwin-leadership/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Doris Kearns Goodwin</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2015/12/06/jamie-foxx/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Jamie Foxx</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2020/10/19/matthew-mcconaughey/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Matthew McConaughey</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2017/05/21/esther-perel/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Esther Perel</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2020/05/08/elizabeth-gilbert/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Elizabeth Gilbert</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2017/12/20/terry-crews-how-to-have-do-and-be-all-you-want/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Terry Crews</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2020/08/12/sia/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Sia</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2020/10/27/yuval-noah-harari/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Yuval Noah Harari</a>, <a href="https://tim.blog/2016/06/21/malcolm-gladwell/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Malcolm Gladwell</a>, <a 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